Mr. Vice-Chairman, I accept the principle of the separation of the Railway Finance from the General Finance. I also accept the desirability of this arrangement. It is not only a convenient arrangement but it is based on sound principles, and is conducive to the better administration of the Railways. I also agree that the contribution of the Railways to the General Revenues should be in the shape of fixed dividends, but I cannot agree that the dividend should be fixed at 4 per cent and that is the crux of the whole report. As a matter of fact, the Committee was instituted only to go into that matter whether the dividend payable at the present time, i.e., 4 per cent was reasonable or not and whether this arrangement should continue. When I say that I do not agree to the rate of dividend, I wish to submit that enough material has not been placed in our hands to judge whether the dividend which is being fixed is fixed on some sound basis or not. The Committee has not examined certain vital matters concerning the administration of the Railways and what I find is that the whole arrangement is very superficial. It appears to me that the Railway Administration and the Finance Administration came to an agreement and the Committee did not find it necessary, because of the agreement between the two Ministries, to examine and go into the vital matters which affect this issue. It is not clear how this dividend, if fixed at 4 per cent is going to react on the working of the Railways and particularly on the future development of the Railways, and also on the present structure of the fares and freights. This question has not at all been examined and we do not know what reaction it is likely to have. These are very vital matters and I think that they need a thorough examination before we can come to correct conclusion in this matter. As we know, there is a pressing demand for reduction in the Railway fares, particularly for third class passengers. This demand has been made on the floor of this House, and I think there is great justification behind this demand, and more particularly now when we find that the prices of agricultural goods have gone down, we will have to take into consideration the question whether the rural population who will get much lesser return for their products now, will be able to pay the same fares and freights. I also wish to draw your attention to the fact that the Federation of Indian Chambers of Commerce had submitted a memorandum to the hon. the Railway Minister asking him for an examination and revision of the freight structure. I do not know what the position today is, and unless and until we are enlightened about that, unless and until we know where we stand in relation to freights and fares, we are not in a position to take any decision whether the rate of dividend should be 4 per cent or not. I should like to ask the hon. the Railway Minister, whether in view of this strong demand made by the people through their representatives in both the Houses of Parliament and in view of the changing economy with which we are faced, he can give us an assurance that he will be able to discharge his obligations and responsibilities and commitments, that he will be able to pay a dividend of 4 per cent, and yet, he will be able to reduce the freight and fare rates. That is the basic thing. Another important factor which has to be taken into consideration is the development schemes. I wish to submit that there is no new approach in this matter. I find that we are going about in this matter in the same frigid manner and the aspirations of the people have not at all been taken into consideration. The hon. Railway Minister will remember that during the Budget speeches made on the floor of this House as well as in the other House there have been incessant demands for the development of the Railways. I don't know what he thinks about it and how he thinks that after paying this dividend at 4 per cent he will be able to meet that demand and he will be able to find a way for the Railways to expand their economy, as they think it proper as would meet the demands and aspirations of the people. In this connection, I wish to invite your particular attention to the facts. I will be happy if we could pay even a larger percentage but the fact is that we must be sure that the Railways are, in the present circumstances, in a position to do so and yet discharge their responsibilities and obligations and satisfy the needs and demands of the people which are legitimate and justified. Now, when we fix the dividend at 4 per cent, what happens is that we also fix that of those projects which are to be considered as remunerative at 5 per cent because the Railways want a margin of 1 per cent. What actually happens is that when we fix it at such a high level, because of this percentage, we find that not many new projects are really taken up and we have been very seriously disappointed in this matter. I, therefore, think that in the present circumstances, the Railways cannot afford to pay a dividend of 4 per cent. May I ask the Railway Minister whether it is not a fact that even he has not been able to contribute fully or even he will fall short by about Rs. 60 crores in his contribution towards the Plan? Out of the Rs. 400 crores that the Railways have to contribute, I find from his speech that they are faced with a net shortfall of about Rs. 62 crores. Submit